If there was one Sunday-morning talk show exchange that describes the new reality for the political media - and for the truth - during the President Donald Trump era, this was it.
It was a discussion about White House press secretary Sean Spicer, on his first full day in that job, having taken to the podium and made easily disproved claims about the size of Trump's inauguration crowd.
"Why put him out there for the very first time, in front of that podium, to utter a provable falsehood?" "Meet the Press" host Chuck Todd asked Kellyanne Conway, counselor to the president. "It's a small thing, but the first time he confronts the public, it's a falsehood?"
After some tense back and forth, Conway offered this:
"Don't be so overly dramatic about it, Chuck. You're saying it's a falsehood, and they're giving - our press secretary, Sean Spicer, gave alternative facts to that. But the point really is -"